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1.8 vvc timing 
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Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:27 am
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Location: Sheffield
GTM: Libra
Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
My PRT is in the rad circuit not the heater, it's the grey 92°C type. The OE stat near the pump is 97°C I think (I removed the internals on mine).

A diagram of your cooling setup would be helpful.

Good news on the sensors.

The alt/warning light circuit should have a diode in it somewhere. Could also be the big fuse at rear of engine or plugs connecting to alternator or the alt itself faulty? Do you get 14ish volts range at battery when running?

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2000 GTM Libra 1.8VVC 145BHP


Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:45 am
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
Sorry to just jump in without reading the whole thread, not sure what type of bulb you are using for the ignition but quite often it has to be at least 5W to excite the alternator into charging, on the buggies some people used an led but had to hide a traditional filament bulb behind the dash. Also just check your bulb isn't wired down to earth in error.


Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:52 am
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
I have LED indicator with resistors for this.

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2000 GTM Libra 1.8VVC 145BHP


Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:27 am
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
Sketch of the cooling system attached. Does it matter which way the heater pipes are run (is there a specific in and out direction for the heater matrix?).

Not sure of the wattage of the bulb, it's a small filament type shown in an earlier post. I could add a 2k resistor as I have a few lying around from an old project..? I don't see a high voltage at the battery while the engine is running exactly, I see the charge of the battery slowly increasing. After about 20 minutes the reading had increased from ~12.6 to ~13.4 V so I assumed that meant it was working.


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Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:07 pm
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Location: Sheffield
GTM: Libra
Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
The heater pipes should go on same way as on Rover Metro, not entirely sure which way this (cant see em on my car either) is or of it make much difference. I do know my bleed valve is on the passenger side hose (which I think goes to the highest pipe off the matrix - important for bleeding) as it goes into the bulkhead.

This is my current cooling system:
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My Libra cooling system.jpg
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Flows shown with PRT open or closed. Given it's temp and flow dependent its never simply open/shut but for simplicity sake...

I'd say your alternator is gone or on it's way out with those figures. Could be a poor connection but more likely the alt itself.
My car gives 14.2v right away after startup & at idle.

My alternator on the VVC failed after 10 years. back in 2011, (brought the warning light on).

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2000 GTM Libra 1.8VVC 145BHP


Last edited by sidewinder on Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:22 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
Your design looks superior to mine - running the PRT bypass back into the radiator return is a good idea as it will help with the mixing of hot and cold before it returns to the block. Running the hot engine water directly to the heater all of the time (without the potential for a thermostat to interfere with the flow) is a better solution for continuous heat to the cab.

I have cut and spliced old pipes for this very reason. When I have a design that works I will replace the hoses with new silicone with the least amount of joints possible.


Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:28 am
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Post Libra upgrade
Hello again, more random questions.

This piece of carpet (see photo) does it cover the petrol tank filler hoses - with the triangular flaps behind the interior trim and the larger rectangular section running behind the trim up towards the rear glass window? I don't see it in the build manual and there are no existing screw holes in it so I'm a bit confused how the previous chap had orientated and fixed it in position. Should have taken photos all those years ago!

The gear change gaiter surround has gone missing so I'll need a new one. I've been looking at a few on the car builder solutions website. Does anyone know of one off the shelf that will definitely fit?

Does anyone have a dashboard available for sale? Pappa G is making one but it's a slow process, and a ready to fit one would speed things up considerably.

Finally could someone educate me on the rules of engine upgrades when it comes to an MOT? As we have changed the 1.1 ltr Metro engine for the 1.8 VVC I assume there could be questions at the test centre, or issues with emissions. The original build was completed before the need for a cat, so I'm not clear if I need to make any changes (I hope not, I've just sorted all the existing exhaust leaks!). Do I need to updated the logbook with new information before it's tested, or does that only need to be updated if you're looking to sell on a vehicle?


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Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:22 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
That carpet looks like it might be the boot floor section?


Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:19 am
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
hi I change my engine to a 1.8 in my k3

Quote:
Finally could someone educate me on the rules of engine upgrades when it comes to an MOT? As we have changed the 1.1 ltr Metro engine for the 1.8 VVC I assume there could be questions at the test centre, or issues with emissions. The original build was completed before the need for a cat, so I'm not clear if I need to make any changes (I hope not, I've just sorted all the existing exhaust leaks!). Do I need to updated the logbook with new information before it's tested, or does that only need to be updated if you're looking to sell on a vehicle?


so I sent the v5c of the DVLA
this is what i got back
Dear mr ________

thanks for your application for a registration certificate (v5c)

your application included a change of:
engine number
engine size(cc)

TO UPDATE OUR RECORD WITH THE CHANGE OF VEHICLE DETAILS , YOU MUST PROVIDE ONE OF EVIDENCE FROM THE LIST BELOW.

. a receipt of purchase on headed paper. from a garage. confirming the engine number and size. and the fuel type for the replacement engine
. an inspection report provided for insurance purposes or
. written confirmation from the engine manufacturer showing the engine number and size.

if the vehicle's engine has been converted or the change took place before you bought the vehicle we will accept:

. written confirmation on headed paper from the garage that carried out the conversion ,
or
. written confirmation of the change on headed paper from an independent garage .



so a phoned DVLA to find out what i had to do as I had put the engine in my self.
and what I had to do was the last part (the blue line ) get a garage to look at the car and confirm the change on headed paper that's the engine and number .


as for the MOT
Quote:
I assume there could be questions at the test centre, or issues with emissions. The original build was completed before the need for a cat,


the test centre did not question the 1.8 as the build was completed before a cat was needed ( they did not care what engine was in the car )

hope this helps


(ps) DVLA ARE SLOW AT RESPONDING

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Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:43 am
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
Agree.. looks like a boot carpet
For the gear change surround I would steer away from the Car Builder Solutions ones. Tried the oval one in the old Spyder with a leather boot. The surround is a pretty rigid piece and broke when trying to bend it to shape, so reverted back to the GTM surround. Westfield will be making them soon and Patrick at Westfield seems pretty helpful with this, but no dates set yet. For me … use a temporary one or make your own and then get one when Westfield have spare parts.


Also agree if registered Pre-cat...……… according to my garage, who also phoned DVLA to check' it stays Pre-Cat. They also said that if a Cat had never been fitted, that's the way it can stay, so as I have no Cat on the Libra (or the sons K3) they said DON'T DO IT. If a cat is ever fitted it'll cause problems later in their view.


Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:55 am
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
As said, deffo the boot carpet.

My OE stick surround is overall 140mm long, 130mm wide (measured along the curvature) and 25mm wide the frame.

Does your car have an SVA or IVA, does it have an age related number plate?

Eg. My car was SVA/1st reg in 2000 with a 1.4 engine, the donor vehicle was a J reg (1991) - two years before cats became compulsory. Therefore when my car was SVA'd it was done based on being a '91 so no cat was needed and none was fitted. I put a brand new 1.8VVC in 2001, notified DVLA and got log book updated immediately. No cat was fitted as the age of the vehicle (not the engine!) dictated none was required.

Rules for MOT emissions have changed a lot over the years, but i've never really had a problem, most of the time it's been the 'basic' non-cat emissions test which has had a quite generous CO/HC allowance and a modern engine passes easily.

My V5 states (under 'special notes') CO3.5% & HC0.12 (1200ppm). In the actual list of tech stuff where emissions should be listed there is nothing on the V5.

My MOT last year was tested under 'basic' 'non-cat' limits set as above. My actual values were CO 0.85% & HC 191ppm. Idle speed and smoke test were both a pass also.

On the road tax side my car falls under the current vehicle tax laws as a "registered before 2001" which has only two engine sized-based bands of which mine is the more expensive. However under the post 2001 bands which are CO based and IF I had a cat i'd be under band J I think which is slightly more expensive.
(The figures here are g/km so I don't know how my tested %CO figure translates)

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Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:54 am
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
sidewinder wrote:
On the road tax side my car falls under the current vehicle tax laws as a "registered before 2001" which has only two engine sized-based bands of which mine is the more expensive. However under the post 2001 bands which are CO based and IF I had a cat i'd be under band J I think which is slightly more expensive.
(The figures here are g/km so I don't know how my tested %CO figure translates)

i don't think that is strictly true, my car was SVA'd/registered (not GTM) in 2009, it was originally fitted with a 1985 engine from the donor & received an age related plate, this was replaced in 2011 with a 2001 engine of a different size, I just took it to the local garage who wrote a letter confirming what the new engine number was, what it's capacity was & that it was fitted in a car with my registration & VIN No.

My VED is based on the original date of the donor car, i.e. a 1985 car fitted with a 1800cc engine. One thing I did fall foul of due to bad advice on the phone was that I had the vehicle with valid VED, they would not change it mid term, I had to SORN the car, apply for the change & then renew the VED at the new higher rate.


Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:41 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
My car's VED is based on it's first registered date in 2000, that's a fact. As seen here: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tab ... march-2001

Things have changed over time so maybe when you registered yours the rules were different. SVA was replaced by IVA in '09 for example.

Current rules state the tax scheme you come under is based on when the car was registered, so if 2009 1st reg, this should apply: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tab ... march-2001

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Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:47 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
Thank you for the responses again. Are parts potentially becoming available soon because Westfield are planning to re-launch the Libra as electric vehicles? I read an article on that a few years ago but I'd heard nothing since. I called them a few months ago about a dashboard and the chap (Mark?) said they should have new parts such as dashboards coming in. I'll call again and see if they have an update.

If that carpet doesn't cover the petrol pipes I may be missing a piece. Could someone post a photo of the area behind the seats please, or at least what covers the petrol pipes, so I can ID the carpet layout? Perhaps I've installed the missing piece in the wrong place.

I'll pop into my local garage this evening and see if I can get them to agree to write a letter for the log book regarding an engine swap before / during the MOT. The vehicle was purchased with a H registration plate, (from the original 1990 Metro I presume), which I later changed to the obligatory "XXX GTM" custom number plate. 8) Not entirely sure about the IVA / SVA, I'll have to check the paperwork.

New senders were required to work with the oil and water gauges. Settled up £ with Speedy Cables and they're on their way back. Fingers crossed they fit, I get accurate readings, the rad fan will work - and I don't blow the HG. :lol:


Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:48 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
Do you have an "interior trim pack" - a series of mouldings that screw to the inside of the cabin to cover the raw FG areas?

There's a separate mold that covers the bulge of the fuel tank and the handbrake which I covered in a black furry type material - not sure if material came with kit.

I also have a long curved molding that covers the front corner of the 'shelf', on top of the shelf itself is just hardboard (umbrella on it) though cut to shape again covered in the black fur. There are moldings that surround the back window and the uprights either side and a small bulge part that goes over the tank pipes.

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2000 GTM Libra 1.8VVC 145BHP


Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:37 pm
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