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1.8 vvc timing 
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
If you have the time and space to store the car and bits while you do it, if it were me i'd strip off the manifolds etc. and take the head off myself to see what the problem is and what condition the block and head faces are in. Then you can make an informed decision as to what you need to proceed & the only thing you've spent is time.
Do you have metal or plastic dowels? (need metal as plassy ones can contribute to HGFs)
Is the block face ok, not warped or damaged?
What is the status of the cylinder liners, measure how much they protrude from the block face. This will determine which type gasket you should be using.
Is the head face pitted or warped?

I DL this and found it useful http://www.timguydesign.f2s.com/pics/MG ... cement.pdf

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Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:25 am
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
Took the head off and it was OK, no warping or pitting. The liners weren't level and three of them were level with the block so the MLS wouldn't have worked anyway.

Unfortunately we found that the engine block was in a sorry state. Heavily corroded. Water is leaking into the sump from somewhere lower than the head gasket. When a small amount of water was poured around the liners it would come out the sump plug so it's a significant leak. Not sure at this point but the liners could be compromised, (moved or corroded through), or possibly even an internal crack somewhere. The engine stood for years without any coolant in it, clearly there wasn't enough corrosion inhibitor remaining to prevent it.

We've taken the engine and box out completely and I will buy either a new block or a complete new engine as I don't have the time or expertise to refurbish it myself.

We were so close haha!


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Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:15 am
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On the Road

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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
I'd guess it's the liner's bottom sealant to the block that's the problem. Unless the block itself is cracked -tho i wouldn't think that would be a fast leak.

(Y'know the triangular holes are oil ways so if you pour water in them it will go into the sump - yeah?)

If the block is ok you can re-seat and reseal the liners, not too hard as long as you keep all parts in same place/orientation when refitting.

Those liners do look quite rusty, here's what mine looked like;
Attachment:
Block 1.JPG
Block 1.JPG [ 226.09 KiB | Viewed 3196 times ]


(Tony - Also i've re-uploaded my cooling system diagram (earlier in the thread) as I got the PRT to radiator section wrong.)

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Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:19 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
Yes I know :) I poured the water around the cylinder liners (where your blue / orange, coolant + rust mixture is).

I'm tempted to have a go at re-sealing if it's straight forward and not too costly. I removed the sump and oil ladder, I can see the bottom of the pistons and liners. Is it possible to push the liners up, seal them from the bottom using Hylomar and then push them back down and clamp them from the top in order to seal them, or is it easier to remove the crank, pistons, liners and re-fit. If the liners rotate slightly during any kind of refit could that cause issues?

Don't really want to replace the liners, pistons etc. it's cheaper to buy a new engine + box + ancillaries on eBay... but of course a second hand engine could have issues of it's own.


Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:14 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
Now you have sump off can you experiment to tell where the leak is exactly?

No experience with stripping blocks, only what i've read but I think you need to pull the liners out altogether to clean off the old sealer, I read you can leave the pistons in the liners to save trouble of reinserting pistons/mixing up orientation position etc. (dunno how this is done)

You can also get shims to lift the liners up and/or make them all same height.

Assuming the bits you have are basically sound, I guess it would only cost price of sealant (blue hylomar?) and maybe shims in terms of £££. Maybe worth getting a quote from a K specialist or two to see what it would cost to have em done if you present em with just the block?

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Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:57 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
Update on progress.

The engine has been removed, split into three parts and the liners have been removed with the pistons still inside. I'm waiting on a set of bearings before re-assembly.

I cleaned the rust from tops of the liners by soaking them over night in some citric acid. The buik of the rust has gone, they are a little pitted but serviceable. There was a small amount of rusty debris inside the liners, so I've wiped them down best I can, moved the pistons up and down a few times to push the crud out and then cleaned again before wiping a little oil around the interior to stop any further oxidation.

I'll install two pistons and liners with Hylomar blue sealant, put the oil rail back on so I can clamp them in place, rotate the crank ready to do the second pair, and then leave it over night to cure... then I'll have to remove the oil rail and clamps and do the second pair. I'll then stand the engine upright and pour a little water around them to see if anything drips through...

Any thoughts, hints or tips?


Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:57 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
Hello again.

The engine and gearbox are back under the car, but I wanted to sort the timing before I put the engine mount on.

I have a new belt, the code I have double checked on line for suitability and it's OK. I'm having trouble with timing again :(

With the cam locking tool in place (timing marks aligned) and the crank in the safe position, the belt will not go on properly. The belt is too loose between the crank pulley and the right hand cam. I watched a few YouTube videos and they fit the belt and it's tight straight away. Mine is either loose or won't go on and slips.

I had a play: moving the flywheel forward and backwards slightly to allow the belt to slip on, in both advanced and retarded positions, but obviously that pulls the crank pulley away from the safe position. I tried removing the locking tool and moving the crank back to safe with the belt nice and tight in both scenarios, and it's a good tooth out, so I wouldn't consider running it in that way and I don't really want to run the engine with a slack belt on one side.

Has anyone got any suggestions on what could be wrong here?


Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:54 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
The toothed crank pulley is two dots at 12, flanking the molded rib on the block? Don't just do it via the alternator pulley mark as this can slip.

https://www.the-t-bar.com/forum/21-davi ... 020-timing for correct cam pulley marks 6-7th pics

Tensioner pulley fitted but fully slack?

Belt placed just less than half on the crank pulley and hold it there with a 17mm open end wedged in between the plassy cover and belt (or other suitable wedge), take belt up and just onto the exhaust cam pulley - make sure it's not slack, no need for twangy tightness just not floppy. feed belt on to inlet pulley and hold there. Now going clockwise from the crank, feed belt on to the pump and tensioner. Progressively push belt all way on to each pulley. Move tensioner by hand as tight as you can and nip in place with cap screw and slot bolt.
Remove locking tools.
Temp fit the alt pulley bolt and washer finger tight but NOT the alt pulley itself so you can still see marks on the crank pulley.
Rotate crank pulley clockwise two turns by hand using the crank pulley bolt. (sparks out make this easier and you should not feel any real resistance).
Crank pulley marks reset to safe timing mark & check cam pulley marks and VVC pulley marks.
Belt should be centralised on pulleys. Marks should be lined up ok within a few degrees, if you're a tooth out marks will be very obviously wrong.
Properly tension the tensioner pulley using spring etc (depending type of tensioner you have).

Rotate two turns and check again until happy with alignment (don't forget Rear VVC belt!)

When I started my engine after belt change it was very juddery bouncy for less than a minute and then smoothed out as it 'bedded in''.

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Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:46 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
Hi Sidewinder.

The alt pulley isn't on, I've been using the 2x dots against the casting. When initially fitting the belt I've left the tensioner out until last. I've been working from crank pulley up to the right hand cam pulley (the longest length) as suggested by this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qn8ljQKZxA&t=281s

The latter steps I've not had a problem with. I've fitted and tensioned it up twice after having to move the crank forward / backwards slightly to get the belt to slip on with the right tension. Both times the timing has been incorrect by 1 tooth either forward or backward.

It's the first step that's going wrong. I can't seem to get the tension, or I move the crank to allow it to fit and that causes it to lose correct timing.


Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:27 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
Is the crank pulley on it's correct key slot alignment thingy on it's shaft and secured with the bolt? Using the right timing marks on the cam pulleys?

By one tooth out, how far misaligned are the marks?

Kinda hard to advise without having it in front of you.

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Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:32 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
Evening,

Good news is that the car is finally back together and running OK. Not sure quite how I got the timing correct; I turned it over by hand several times and had another go and it all just lined up! Must have been some play in the system which was evened out by rotating the engine?..

No obvious water leaks and water level seems steady, but I only ran it to 80 oC before I lost the light. Need to check the rad fan activates and that the liner repair has actually worked after running it a bit longer / hotter. The new oil temp sensor seems to have thrown a wobbly. 80 oC at rest and 110 oC after about 5 minutes of running (the water temp sensor was only reading 40 oC). :lol:

Waiting on a new alternator and need to get the tacho and speedo working + and a load of interior work to complete. Should keep me busy over the winter months for a spring MOT and run out.

Thanks to all who commented / helped again - particularly you Sidewinder - couldn't have done it without you!


Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:58 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
Brilliant, glad you're making progress.

With cam belt I think you've just gotta line it up, stick it on, tension on and then keep rotating it by hand until it's settled into being obviously right or obviously wrong. The coarseness of pitch of the teeth is not gonna give an ambiguous result leaving you unsure - it'll either look right, or not.

I put bits of hardboard under possible leak spots so it's easy to tell. Sketch out your pipework again to satisfy it's right. That sketch of mine I did wrong first but I corrected it and re-uploaded the pic.
Keep a close eye on tank exp level while testing. I actually fitted an MGF exp tank and rigged up my own level sensor so now if the bottle goes empty i get a light and alarm in the cabin.

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Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:59 am
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
There was a really slow / light weep from the old thermostat housing I just couldn't seem to stop. I confess - I cheated using some Radweld which sorted it. Not a bad idea using a level sensor on the expansion tank, how did you rig that up?

New alternator and starter motor installed. Had to install a diode to turn the car off - before hand I had to pull the negative off the battery to stop it!

Can't get the fan to come on even with a new temp switch. I tried and tested the rad fan and wiring again, (both OK), I can only assume it's just not quite hot enough on the return side of the rad. I'm going to run a bypass and switch into the cab to give the option to manually control it, just in case I get stuck in heavy traffic and it still doesn't activate. Waiting on a new, new sensor for the oil temp gauge as it seems to have failed already. Sigh.

A few creaks and moans coming from the rear. Looked at all the joints and boots and they're not the best, all deflated. There are no grease points so I'm not really sure what to do about it. I was reading that there are needles which can be used with a gun to force grease in, but I don't like the idea of damaging the rubber. Has anyone used one and if so, how do you repair the hole and stop it all leaking out afterwards?

What PSI are you aiming for in your tyres? I'm using 205/40 R17 W's.


Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:14 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
The later MGF tanks have a magnetic float inside it and molded tube that you can put a reed switch inside which feeds to a little box with LED and siren under the dash. Has a time delay on it so alarm only goes off if level drops for more than 20secs of so - to avoid constant false alarms as the fluid sloshes etc. (www.apttony.co.uk is where circuit info came from) My page http://www.sidewinderforge.co.uk/netlib ... tmlb5.html
You can buy a complete tank and alarm setup ready built: https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-PCF000142SK
Also spotted this: ebay # 303330399843

You're back-feeding from your alternator to the ignition. Is charging system working ok now; 14odd volts running?

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Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:29 pm
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Post Re: 1.8 vvc timing
It was backfeeding but the diode sorted it. Charging strong. Might try to repair the old one if I get bored :mrgreen:

I'll have a look at the expansion upgrade sounds like a sensible precaution. I left a few spare wires running under the interior carpet so I have the option for it.

Any thoughts on joint / suspension maintenance?


Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:45 pm
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