im up for it ! its a shame that it has turned out the way it did but westfield would never be able to make a profit as gtm is too small and no body is going to pay £25,000 for a libra realistically rdm scrapped gtm as gtm should not be run like a money making business but more like a family run business eg which paddy had it and his partner back in 2002 those times made you felt appreciated and they would do alot for you or as much as they can.
i hope that we have a good outcome because it needs the forum as people ask questions and if people stick together then gtm could be good again.
any questions or dates on meetings please email me
alan

Alan -- I can see where you're coming from but unfortunately I think the Pete and Paddy way of doing things is a bit of a romantic notion. Don't forget that Pete and Paddy operated in a very low cost environment but still managed to conduct their business in a professional way. Whist its easy to be critical of RMB's(?) stewardship of the project the Libra whilst it is a very good kitcar is a bit sort of development to make it as a production car -- it probably needs a £1-2 million throwing at it. So the whole project becomes a dilema -- its a great kit car but with limited volume and a slightly "seasonal" market but as a production car its not good enough to draw people from an MX5 or MR2. This is a bit like the problems Harold Dermot faced when he tried to push the Midas up market.

In an ideal world, like you, I think it would be great if a small group of individuals could buy the moulds, jigs, etc from Westfield and set up production again. BUT -- I don't think they'd sell on the GTM brand or the Libra name plate so a major marketing re-launch would be necessary right from the start. Then there's the engineering -- even as a kit the Metro base is becoming a bit problematic. Not in terms of the powertrain but stuff like pedal boxes/heater units etc. So we've got to redevelop and remarket which all costs major money. A quick trip to your local Bank Small Business manager for a loan will require a business plan with projected volumes, production costs, marketing costs, investment plan etc etc. Its a full time job sorting this stuff out before you've ever made anything.

Perhaps an alternative would be to buy the moulds and jigs and run the business providing parts along the way Alan runs Rossabits.

Off the wall suggestion -- it would probably be easier to put the Coupe back into prodution than the Libra just because there are more Mini parts available.

I don't disagree with this, but 1-2 million is way over top. A good number of years ago I was involved with GCS cars and there initial development of Hawk (a Morgan look-a-like), I help make the first moulds and number of bodies, wings etc from my garage. Time was big investment.
As regard to times that need to be updated, heaters etc, many more parts are available that would suit from vendors like CBS. As for a donor car the MGF is getting to that stage and most of there parts could be use in Libra without much modification to either.
As for the Coupe, yes there are many vendors providing Mini spares, which is excellent but donor vehicles are very short on the ground. This could make a build very expensive. The problems would be around SVA and get the kit able to pass as laws change year on year.

making a gtm could be pretty easy my dad built an ultima gtr from scratch and looking at geometry on that compared to a libra a scaled down space frame chassis wouldnt be hard.

i read a book on geometry and a few tweekes to my libra and it now out handles a elise s2 vvc which me and my friend raced together. so realistically chopping up a libra tub to get an outside skin and a scaled down chassis = any wheel source any engine steering rack but at the end of the day its a shame westfield wont release the mould as if someone did my idea then the libra can live on but in a different name and well made on a space frame chassis.

westfield are best keeping off the libra as when mine came out of their workshop from repairs it was a death trap until i had to spend anotther £££££ on suspension and steering.

but my car is getting done a one of a kind it was at stoneleigh last year tthe one witth white stripe and race looking but this time its all white inc a secret engine bay luxury which wil be revealed at stoneleigh 2011 .....

Davrianmad/amracing,
I don't disagree with either of your comments but I think Davrianmad hit the nail on the head with his comment that the only investment is time and to coin an old phase in business time is money. Try costing out your time at "mates rates" of say £25 per hour and then at commercial rates of £100+ per hour. Then start paying yourself to do all the re-engineering, development on ride and handlng/NVH etc and it soon mounts up. £1-2 million may be an overcall but if you wanted to build fully IVA'd production cars to sell in reasonable volumes I suspect it will cost a small fortune. On the other hand sticking with a kit approach and building approx one kit per week as per Pete and Paddy then the cost of the moulds/jigs and some money up front for a small number of sets of the other non-Metro parts would probably have you underway. It just depends on what approach you want to make and how you think you can sell them. Whilst we're preaching to the converted on this website in reality I suspect that the it market for the Libra as a kit has virtually dried up by now but again I'm perpared to be corrected. It would be interesting to know what sort of volumes kit cars sell in -- I suspect its very low after the initial launch excitment.
Anyway we're getting a little off topic -- does anyone think its worth a meet with Westfield or shoud we let it rest?

yeah i would be up for a meet as westfield need a kick start to be honest! i hate their parts department so we need to share our comments and concerns as its the gtm owners that make the company 'gtm' its only the new people that dont know where to start looking.

keep me posted im ringing simon on weds 2nd about some parts as im sick of waiting for people to ring me back so i will mention a meeting for us in the forum and any others welcome too.

amracing,
I could probably make a meeting with Simon later in the month -- will you try to arrange or should I?
I'm visiting relatives this week so couldn't call him until next Monday.

ill contact simon this week and get a few available dates for a meeting so everyone can agree on a date thats best for everyone.

Peter Beck and Paddy Fitch made GTM work simply by working very hard at what people wanted. The Libra, as an entity, is pretty much a product of how they ran the business with the original GTM, the Rossas, the Midas' and even the NGs. As a partnership it worked very well..Paddy's almost disinterest in the engineering and Pete's likewise with the sales side were offset by each other's enthusiasm. Owning the factory at Trowel Lane was useful and their attention to detail brought it's rewards.
I suspect, with the benefit of a little inside view, that the Libra was very much a swansong. Indeed, by the time the ink was dry on the RDM buyout there SHOULD have been a car already on the drawing board to replace it.
RDM embarked on a laughable policy of pointless cosmetic silliness and headline grabbing games with X-Power whilst at the same time failing to attend to trhe business in hand. Selling GOOD QUALITY kits. Whilst being manufactured at Sutton Bonington the moulds spent one week a month in maintenance. I'd be amazed if RDM did any once taking the moulds 'in house'. Certainly the Green Libra with Red NACA paintwork at Stoneleigh that year was nothing short of embarrassing in finish quality.
In addition the sales 'team' really hadn't a clue. Stands at whatever show as long as I can remember (and that dates back beyond Rossa Mk1 launch) had always been manned with enough 'staff', whoever they might be available at the time, to talk about the cars. Under both RDM and Potenza there seemed to be a bigger interest in corporate shirts than in product knowledge and when they showed a Spyder on the Stoneleigh stand that had road debris across the bonnet the writing was on the wall.
The fact that the clubs were doing more selling than the stands (especially when the owners didn't even deem Stoneleigh worth attending) was another obvious nail in the coffin.

I'd be surprised if the Libra has a future either in proper GTM mid-engined form OR as a crappy old spaceframe pastiche to be honest.

Apologies to all that I've done nothing about this for some time -- I've been dragged out of retirement to do some consulting work and to be honest the commute to London is a bit of a shock to the system.

I was wondering whether it would be an idea to ask someone from Westfield to address the assembled hoards at Stoneleigh -- maybe after the AGM? They might be too busy but is always worth a try.

Any thoughts?

Request to Westfield for a Q & A sent this morning.

Bob S.

Thanks Bob -- sterling work on behalf of the club as ever -- hopefully the As are as good as the Qs.

And not the load of old flannel we were given when it last changed hands and we were asking questions of Westfield

Ok,

Julian Turner, MD of Westfield Sportscars, has agreed to do a Q & A session in the GTMOC Marquee at the Stoneleigh show.
This will be at 11am on the Sunday, before the AGM which will be at 2pm.

Julian has asked what questions you have, so he can prepare the answers. If you can e-mail any questions to me, or post them here [which means I've got to rewrite them ] I'll pass them on.

Julian has suggested some topics:-
GTM- Existing spares support website.
Communication lines [news,updates,etc]
Development of existing Vehicle [Electric]
Future parts [carbon parts such as Diffusers, etc]
Future of GTM.

Bob S

Ps, Has any TeamGTM member got an up to date e-mail address for Cameron[the one I have is not getting through], so I can invite TGTM along as well.

Bob

Cameron no longer has anything to do with TGTM - not sure who would be the best point of contact now to be honest. We are migrating one by one across to GTMOC so there are quite a few dual members on here already.

From my perspective I'd like to know if Westfield intend to try and recover the rights to the Coupe with a view to either supporting existing owners or completing the SVA/IVA work as it would make a good stable mate for their Lotus 11 replica.

I'd also like to know about future developments before I test drive and end up placing a deposit for a Ginetta G40.....

Regards

David